| LDones |
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It is no
secret that the Third Era has been fraught with sudden, drastic
change and upheavel at nearly every turn - of this I am thankfully
not ignorant; however, having busied myself with some years of
hermetic research into the goings on of several secret societies on
the island of Vvardenfell and their innermost workings, I have
emerged recently with a certain incredulity to find that many facts
surrounding the fulfilling of the Dunmer Nerevarine Prophecies were
in direct conflict with what I would swear was true not less than a
decade prior - as though the world I knew were suddenly false, or
perhaps more appropriately... changed.
I ask you
fellow scholars then, in your kindness and genorousity, to enlighten
me, if you will, as to the circumstances of these most baffling
schisms in my education between the Warp of the West and the Second
Coming of the Nerevarine on Vvardenfell:
1) Was the Daedra
Prince Boethiah not identified with the fairer sex (female, to
clarify) when last I checked? Is there some explanation as to
his/her most recent venture into fearsome masculinity?
2) I
recall the prominent metals and materials of Tamrielic weapon and
armor construction as bearing different properties than is now
commonly acknowledged.
-----a) Is Mithril in short supply, or is
it simply no longer available in the Morrowind province?
-----b)
I recall the armor of the changed Orsimer to be of a much heavier
and more powerful construction, comparable to and of greater weight
than even Ebony. Written records confirm this, such as in the
account of 'How Orsinium Passed To The Orcs'. Is there a reason this
no longer appears to be so?
3) When did the zealots of the
Imperial religions catapult great Tiber Septim to the status of 9th
Divine? Is there some historical account to describe this
event?
4) Why are so many of the Daedra Princes seemingly
completely absent from the island of Vvardenfell? Have Namira,
Hermaeus Mora, and Clavicus Vile become so feared as to outlaw even
the mentions of their names in conversation or Dunmer
literature?
(Feel free to answer in or out of character - I
just felt like being cheeky with some questions I genuinely have
about the omissions and changes to the ES world between Daggerfall
and MW. What do you all think of them, and what other changes went
down seemingly without explanation? I'm curious to know... And if
this has already been covered in detail, I apologize - toss me a
link to a prior conversation so I can catch up...  ).
--------------------
-LDones
http://www.hiredgoons.net/MWFiles
Post Extras:     |
| Nigedo |
| Diviner |
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| Reged: 05/29/03 |
| Posts: 2586 |
| Loc: Deep beneath Vvardenfell
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Good questions
LDones.
I doubt that there are any official excuses for these
apparent changes. If there are I too would like to hear them. 
--------------------
Dean of The
Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ
Post Extras: |
| TSBasilisk |
| Diviner |
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| Reged: 06/09/03 |
| Posts: 2858 |
| Loc: Durango, CO | |
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1.) Boethiah
is what gender he/she chooses. The masculine stance in Morrowind
most likely reflects the more aggressive nature of his/her followers
there. Boethiah seems to be the only Daedric Prince to vary their
gender.
2a.) There are more useful materials available with
lower costs than imported goods. BTW, that's a guess.
b.) It
may depend on what type of ebony armor was exported. Was it heavy
plate, like on Vvardenfell, or thinner plate? Away from Morrowind,
the price would rise exponentially, so the usage of ebony would be
as light on materials as would still allow for good protection and
durability. It may even be that the armor is chain mail, rather than
plate armor, and thus lighter but less protective.
3.) From
what I've picked up, he's been more or less venerated as a demi-god
for some time. The Talos Cult has essentially worshipped him for
some time, and it may have been no small leap to slip him in as a
god to help unify the splintering Empire. Although, weren't all of
the Nine Orders already established in Daggerfall? He's more or less
a fairly minor member of the Divines, and may not have had much
mention in the previous games.
4.) Those Daedra were never
strongly worhshipped during the time of the Chimer. No shrines were
erected to them since they were not as important as the other
Daedra, and so none exist today.
--------------------
Member of the Forum Scholars Guild
Member of Greater Dwemer Ruins, Modder in charge of Nchuleft
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| Xanathar |
| Disciple |
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Good
questions, hard to answer...
#1 Boethiah is always female to
me, this is just a design decision to make her as male. You
know the anticipation thing... Sotha Sil (M) is the anticipation of
Azura (F), Vivec (F/M) is the anticipation of Mephala (F/M) although
in my opinion Mephala is also female. Almalexia (F) is the
anticipation of Boethiah (which should be male). So Boethiah is now
Male. Heh heh, I hate this...
#2 Well, I don't have
explanation on this.
#3 I don't have answer on this as well,
although I can point you to Storyboard. Recently we discussed this
too.
#4 I don't know.
#5 Oops, no #5...
Cheers...
--------------------
~Xayah Ayem Neht
Librarian at The
Imperial Library
Member of The
Forum Scholars Guild
Post Extras: |
| LDones |
| Disciple |
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| Reged: 10/10/02 |
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Thanks for the
responses, guys.
I'll
likely implement some in-game books and/or dialogue to address some
of these in something I'm working on right now...
--------------------
-LDones
http://www.hiredgoons.net/MWFiles
Post Extras: |
| B |
| Disciple |
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| Reged: 11/10/01 |
| Posts: 1874 |
| Loc: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
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Your questions
have received several responses, and I agree with everything said.
Sorry I have nothing more to add. 
--------------------
~B
Assistant Librarian at The Imperial
Library
Forum Scholars Guild | The Modern Adventurer
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| LDones |
| Disciple |
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| Reged: 10/10/02 |
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Oh, I hope it
didn't seem as though I was being sarcastic above - I'm genuinely
thankful for the input.
--------------------
-LDones
http://www.hiredgoons.net/MWFiles
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| B |
| Disciple |
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| Reged: 11/10/01 |
| Posts: 1874 |
| Loc: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
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Quote:
Oh, I hope it didn't seem as though I was being sarcastic
above - I'm genuinely thankful for the input.
I know you are sincere.
--------------------
~B
Assistant Librarian at The Imperial
Library
Forum Scholars Guild | The Modern Adventurer
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| phil_t |
| Curate |
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| Reged: 09/27/02 |
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Now where's
Tedders with a very poor excuse for an explanation when you need him
Phil
--------------------
*Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of
Vivec*
*Forum Scholars Guild | Tamriel
Rebuilt*
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| Tedders |
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| Loc: Los Angeles, CA | |
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I’m afraid any
explanations I could give would be completely reasonable and
rock-solid in their logic, and you’ll be disappointed. 
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| Nigedo |
| Diviner |
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| Reged: 05/29/03 |
| Posts: 2586 |
| Loc: Deep beneath Vvardenfell
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--------------------
Dean of The
Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ
Post Extras: |
| phil_t |
| Curate |
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| Reged: 09/27/02 |
| Posts: 422 |
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Hey Tedders!! <waves>
In that case, would you care to
give us your rock-solid interpretations?? 
Phil
--------------------
*Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of
Vivec*
*Forum Scholars Guild | Tamriel
Rebuilt*
Post
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| ACT SMILEY |
| Disciple |
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| Reged: 05/03/01 |
| Posts: 1004 |
| Loc: Some Place In Hell, near Leics, UK
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2. "Game
Balance"
--------------------
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L.
Dones,
Your recent letter sits on my desk, and after a few
evenings musing over Cyrodiilic brandy in my small library, I
believe I may answer some of your questions. Any faults or
incomplete information I accept as mine, and not those of the
authors I have read nor your line of questioning.
2a) Mithril
simply isn't imported to Vvardenfell. The Dunmer do have a history
of military culture, but until assimilation into the Empire their
armies were limited to what resources were available--chitin, Ebony,
etc. The arrival of the occupying Legions after the Armistice opened
gates of trade and allow the influx of the materials and armors of
Men, previously unavailable in a land of ash: Adamantium, Silver,
even Orcish after the gentrification of the Orsimer. And indeed
during the first part of the Third Era, these armors were widely
available throughout Morrowind province. But though the borders
remain somewhat stable as the Third Era rolls on, the influence of
the Emperor wanes*, the presence of the Legions is gradually
replaced by dubious beauracracy, and trade (and thus the
availability of certain goods) slows.
2b) A somewhat easier
question to answer. Orsimer still make some of the finest armor in
Tamriel, but it was inevitable that a hundred years in the Legions
would influence their style of smithing to imitate the
lighter-weight Imperial Armor. A hundred years of long marches and
extended campaigns have taught the Orcs the value of medium-weight
armor, though their work is still the heaviest and most durable of
the medium-weight class.
3) Septim was venerated as Talos the
Dragonborn shortly after his death in 3E38. It began as a small cult
amongst the Legionnaires themselves**, then was legitimized when the
sitting Emperor saw the obvious advantages of a state-sponsored cult
that was not incompatible with the existing pantheon. He is
considered a minor deity, somewhere between a saint and a demigod.
Because he is not an actual "god" in the truest sense (i.e., not a
denizen of Aetherius nor Oblivion), and is clearly a state-invented
religion, it is no surprise that many of the outlying provinces
would choose to ignore his presence in the pantheon
enitrely.
4) The prophet Velothi led the Chimer from the
Summerset Isles to escape religious persecution for having come to
venerate certain of the Daedra Princes as gods. Simply put, not all
of the Daedra Princes were worshipped. Daedra are not worshipped as
a race; rather Velothi chose certain of the Daedra as
patrons.
(Note: Clavicus Vile is in fact acknowledged in
several places in Dunmeric lore and literature, and his Mask is even
rumoured to rest somewhere in the vicinity of Red Mountain. But he
was not chosen as a patron--thus he has no shrines erected to him.
Rather, the Dunmer fear and loathe Vile almost as a trickster
god.)
I hope this letter finds your hands, and contains the
information you seek. Share this with your peers, they may have the
insight I lack on various points, including my ignorance of the
diverse representiations of Boethiah.
Yours,
Garen
Arctus
Legion Captain (ret.) and Independent Scholar
Holy City
of Vivec, Vvardenfell Province,
Morrowind
--------------------------------------------------------------------
[O.O.C.
annotations]
*viz. the opening movie of Daggerfall--"the
provinces fight amongst themselves like spoiled children"--and the
questions of succession hinted at in Ebonheart in
Morrowind.
**This is comparable to the Zoroastrianism
of the Roman Legions.
--------------------
"The war of
the sexes is long over. We are currently enduring occupation."
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Garen,
I find most of your statements accurate, though I do believe
some extra information and questions should be added.
1. If
the Legions influenced their Orcish servants so greatly to make
lighter armor, then why is natural Imperial armor heavy? I believe
it wasn't so much a transition to a more Imperial style, the Orcs
simply after recent events recognized that more medium styles were
more effective for the kind of situation they are now in.
2.
There are many rumors that the Nerevarine saw an aspect of Talos
Dragonborn at Ghostgate before defeating Dagoth Ur. If this is so,
then how could Talos not truly have become a god? He appears just as
it is rumored Mara appeared to the Lord Nerevar Incarnate, and
before her Zenithar. I believe Talos indeed ascended to a more
"god-like" status. He never attempted the Endeavor though as far as
we know, so this indeed leads me to believe that he, through the
divine power of Anu and the imitation of its aspects, was taken to
return to the divine fabric. He then appeared to the Nerevarine as
one of his aspects, as one of the other divine beings would.
3. I do not believe the Velothi chose which Daedra they
would follow, but the Daedra chose them. As part of the conspiracy
of the three deceitful Daedra (Azura, Boethiah, and Mephala), they
plotted to lead some of the Altmer astray. Boethiah then taught the
Velothi all the things they would need to become the three Daedra's
puppets, from culture to architecture. Of course when the Tribunal
used the Heart, all of that changed. Nonetheless, the people of
Veloth didn't choose the Three "Anticipations", the Three chose
them.
Finally, I do not believe the Daedra can be related to
either female or male whatsoever, for they were not involved in the
creation of Mundus or anything for that matter, therefore the rules
of "male" and "female" are not applicable.
Sincerly,
Girai Harkaanius
Student of the Imperial Arts and citizen of
the Empire
The Imperial City, Cyrodiil
--------------------
Just a Cyrodiil citizen who believes
Anu is the answer.
The second to see the Brass God was
the Enantiomorph. You may know them individually as Zurin Arctus and
Talos. - Xal, a Human Maruhkati
Post
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| Nigedo |
| Diviner |
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| Reged: 05/29/03 |
| Posts: 2586 |
| Loc: Deep beneath Vvardenfell
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Girai,
On the subject of Talos and his aspect 'Wulf', you adopt a
position most suitable for one who is himself a descendant of those
human slaves liberated from the Altmeri, who so quickly turned their
backs upon the very forger of the Amulet of Kings.
(Yet I
find it most amusing that you choose to represent yourself in this
place with the highest symbol of the Dwemeri apostasy.)
Talos Dragonborn was no Breton and the "ghost of a god is no
man", which is the same thing. The apparent apotheosis of Ysmir to
the level of the divines is merely the late Cyrodilic recognition of
one most likely to be an immortal aspect of he "who hides in the
religions of all men", much as I am sure this suggestion will
displease you immensely.
Respectfully,
Nigedo
Student of Vehk the Master
--------------------
Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ
Post Extras: |
| drakkarDVG |
| Adept |
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| Reged: 04/08/03 |
| Posts: 231 |
| Loc: Oregon | |
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The sighting
at the Ghostgate was likely just the "dead" god, checking up on his
heart. I won't speculate about the heritage of Tiber Septim, nor
Shor's relation to any mortals pivotal in Tamriels history. I'd
guess the Imperial Cult is just a little too quick to slap
legitimacy on their worship.
--------------------
Seen
any elves?
Post Extras: |
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Nigedo,
Quote:
(Yet I find it most amusing that you choose to represent
yourself in this place with the highest symbol of the Dwemeri
apostasy.)
I use the symbol of Numidium
simply as tribute to the forging of the Empire, of which I love and
will be sad to see fall. I believe the Dwemer are almost as wrong as
Vivec in their methods and take no position of support on their
construction of Numidium, rather as how it was used to form the
greatest alliance of all time.
Quote:
On the subject of Talos and his aspect 'Wulf', you adopt a
position most suitable for one who is himself a descendant of
those human slaves liberated from the Altmeri, who so quickly
turned their backs upon the very forger of the Amulet of Kings.
The Altmeri are a classic
example of the most privilaged children of the One Answer being one
of the first to turn their backs on the truth. I do not attack their
race at all, I simply believe they have simply chosen the wrong
path.
The position of the Imperial Cult is also wrong by the
fact they worship the Aedra and seek to appease them through "good
works". This belief is wrong in its very essence being that they
follow beings that are tainted and just the motive of their "good
works" has become rather hollow. The center drive for these men is
political, to appear like the divine to their fellow men, but this
is wrong in the fact they should be focused on the divine itself.
Out of a relationship with it good works follow, but only then can
they have the right motive.
Quote:
Talos Dragonborn was no Breton and the "ghost of a god is no
man", which is the same thing. The apparent apotheosis of Ysmir to
the level of the divines is merely the late Cyrodilic recognition
of one most likely to be an immortal aspect of he "who hides in
the religions of all men", much as I am sure this suggestion will
displease you immensely.
How you have come to this
conclusion is beyond me. I agree that the Empire perhaps would add
Talos to the divines out of sheer desire for greater power, but
where are you getting these theories? Is it so difficult to accept
that Talos simply returned in mortal form? How do you interpret
"Luck of the Emperor". If it is Lorkaan, then why did he help the
Nerevarine throw out of his reach what he could have simply took?
There is no logic or basis stated to back the theory of it being
Lorkaan, but there is plenty for it being Tiber Septim.
Girai Harkaanius
--------------------
Just a
Cyrodiil citizen who believes Anu is the answer.
The
second to see the Brass God was the Enantiomorph. You may know them
individually as Zurin Arctus and Talos. - Xal, a Human Maruhkati
Post Extras: |
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You guys are
insane.
--------------------
Like roleplaying? Into Final
Fantasy? Check out Balamb Garden.
Post
Extras: |
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[Hey,
SeiferVersion1: Relax. It's all just fun and games 'till someone
calls the Inquisition.]
Girai,
I shall
attempt--briefly, as I am due at a Great House function in the
Hlaalu canton this evening--to answer those of your questions which
I am equipped to answer.
1) "Lighter" does not mean "light",
nor "heavier" "heavy". Heavy as the Imperial Legion uniform can be
(as I know from my thirty year's in this man's army), there is no
question that the Orcish armor of old was a great deal heavier and
more durable. When the Orcs remained content to dwell in the
Orsinium area of eastern High Rock before the nightmarish days of
the Razing, the absence of a need for long-distance marching made
armor weight a non-issue. But necessity is ever the father of
invention, and since joining the Legions the Orcs have learned to
smith a lighter armor that retains much of its former durability
while allowing for the endurance-punishing rigors of an extended
campaign. I think, in all honesty, that we are both making the same
point, so I will content to rest the matter here.
2) I have
heard these rumours of divine visitation, and I credit them little.
I have not had the honour of meeting the Nerevarine since his
arrival in Vvardenfell nor since the attainment of his so-recent
celebrity, and thus cannot speak to the credibility or lack of
credibility of anything this Incarnate reports via hearsay. I will
fully confess that if the tales are true, it makes a compelling case
for the true apotheosis of the Dragonborn. But without physical
proof or even direct testimonials, I must remain
unconvinced.
3) This is entirely semantics. If a god appears
to a prophet, has the god "chosen" the prophet because It appeared
to him, or has the prophet "chosen" the god because he follows It
and leads other people to It? We must content ourselves with the
actual historical event, regardless of any motivations which are
lost in antiquity.
May you find this letter's contents
helpful, and taken in the spirit of scholarship,
Garen
Arctus
Legion Captain (ret.) and Independent Scholar
Holy City
of Vivec, Vvardenfell province, Morrowind
--------------------
"The war of the sexes is long over.
We are currently enduring occupation."
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Garen,
I find your objective statement very
refreshing from the standard scholar's stubborn refusal of seeing
logic. You maintain your position while stating in a logical and
concise manner your arguments. You have just gained considerable
respect at least from me.
Your answers to my statements and
questions are quite satisfactory, and have left me quite contented.
I hope you will continue to lend your unbiased point of view to the
scholars of Tamriel.
Signed respectfully,
Girai
Harkaanius
Student of the Imperial Arts and citizen of the
Empire
The Imperial City, Cyrodiil
--------------------
Just a Cyrodiil citizen who believes
Anu is the answer.
The second to see the Brass God was
the Enantiomorph. You may know them individually as Zurin Arctus and
Talos. - Xal, a Human Maruhkati
Post
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Quote:
You guys are insane.
I agree.
--------------------
Like roleplaying? Into Final
Fantasy? Check out Balamb Garden.
Post
Extras: |
| TSBasilisk |
| Diviner |
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| Reged: 06/09/03 |
| Posts: 2858 |
| Loc: Durango, CO | |
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You agreed
with yourself. How quaint.
Also, why would Lorkhan take his
Heart? Throughout history, it has remained there. Most myths say
that Lorkhan most likely willingly gave up his Heart. To take it
away would kill all residents of Mundus, and that is not what
Lorkhan intended. Whether you think him good or evil, Lorkhan never
desired to simply slaughter his creations.
--------------------
Member of the Forum Scholars Guild
Member of Greater Dwemer Ruins, Modder in charge of Nchuleft
Post Extras: |
| LDones |
| Disciple |
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| Reged: 10/10/02 |
| Posts: 1040 |
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Captain
Arctus,
I thank you for your detailed and conscientous
responses to my open inquiries to local Imperial sources. Your
information has proved more than helpful. On a side note, as I now
understand it, King Gortwog of Orsinium conferred with some of the
finer Altmer smiths in Tamriel to craft the current incarnations of
Orcish battle armor, largely for the reasons you cite.
On
the subject of Daedra Prince Boethiah, I have now come to understand
(after some confusion) that the traditional Dunmer conception of
gender beyond the mortal plane is largely symbolic - particularly in
light of current discussions of sexuality and gender symbols
among the Sermons of Vivec - and the switch to a more
penetrative male symbol makes sense in light of his/her recent
mysterious resurgence to prominence at Khartag Point; though I must
admit a certain dread at what the Daedra Prince's newest change of
sexual focus (both in his own esteem and in the eyes of the Dunmer
people) may mean for his/her future influence on Tamriel.
Masters Harkaanius, Nigedo, and others:
My sincerest
thanks for aiding me in ensuring the information I receive is at its
most honest and accurate.
The stirring discussion of Talos
Dragonborn's purported appearance at the Ghostgate (unbeknownst to
Armigers and Temple patrons alike) has also been educational, to say
the least.
I consider myself - after the fashion of several
recent acquaintances of mine that shall remain nameless -
"Illuminated".
Louis Dones
Breton-born Dunmer of Dubious
Distinction
Currently Un-Employed in Balmora, Vvardenfell
District
--------------------
-LDones
http://www.hiredgoons.net/MWFiles
Post Extras: |
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I venture the
out-of-character guess that the good folks at Bethesda got tired of
stealing the idea of Mithril from Tolkien's fantasy world and
decided to stick to things they had invented for their own fantasy
world. Not to mention, Tolkien's estate periodically gets annoyed
about this sort of thing.
Re: Tiber Septim. As I understand
it, the Amulet of Kings allows conversation with dead Emperors. It
seems, given that this sort of thing is part of the way this
universe works, that it might be pretty easy to figure out whether
or not a dead Emperor had in fact become a god.
Post Extras: |
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Exactly why I
believe he is the Ninth Divine (in a sense).
As a reply to
the "Lorkhan's Heart" topic, in The Five Songs of King Wulfharth the Nords and
Lorkhan himself sought to recover his Heart. The Nords, out of their
idiocy didn't know what they were doing. Lorkhan knew full well what
he was doing, and if he had the opportunity, he would try again (if
he still can). The fact is Lorkhan really doesn't care (or not
enough to restrain his own desires), and really what do you expect?
--------------------
Just a Cyrodiil citizen who believes
Anu is the answer.
The second to see the Brass God was
the Enantiomorph. You may know them individually as Zurin Arctus and
Talos. - Xal, a Human Maruhkati
Post
Extras: |
| drakkarDVG |
| Adept |
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| Reged: 04/08/03 |
| Posts: 231 |
| Loc: Oregon | |
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Actually, now
that I've thought about it, it likely was Septim, though I don't
quite know how he showed up. He very well could be a god. After all,
the Aedra themselves are their ancestors, so its not that odd an
idea that mortals could become gods.
As for Tiber Septim
being Bretic or Nordic, I'd say it doesn't matter, and that if he
was Bretic, he must have been possessed of some Nordic spirit to
have a thu'um, especially one so powerful as his. Has anyone done a
study on the thu'm or has there been a discussion?
--------------------
Seen any elves?
Post Extras: |
| LDones |
| Disciple |
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| Reged: 10/10/02 |
| Posts: 1040 |
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Quote:
As I understand it, the Amulet of Kings allows conversation
with dead Emperors. It seems, given that this sort of thing is
part of the way this universe works, that it might be pretty easy
to figure out whether or not a dead Emperor had in fact become a
god.
And if I were Tiber Septim I'd
tell everyone I was a god, too. Whether or not it was true, it'd
likely have the desired effect.
--------------------
-LDones
http://www.hiredgoons.net/MWFiles
Post Extras: |
| Nazz |
| Disciple |
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| Reged: 02/21/02 |
| Posts: 1399 |
| Loc: Almalexia | |
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On the matter
of Septim's godhood, I find it unlikely. I would not put it past the
monkey cults to elevate Septim to such status whether or not he was
a infact a god, if it would increase the mystique of their
history.
As for Orcish armor, we Dunmer make more than one
kind of armor. I do not see why talented smiths such as the Orc's
could not manage to create both a medium and heavy type of
armor.
I see things mirrored to my good friend Xanathars
view, I think Boethiah has always been male and that those confused
half-breeds from High Rock got it wrong. I managed to sit in on a
summoning of Boethiah while I was traveling in High Rock many years
ago and I must say he did not look the least bit femanin to
me.
--------------------
The 4th of First Seed - Dusk
and Dusk
Keeper of the Gate to Oblivion
Post
Extras: |
| Nigedo |
| Diviner |
|
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| Reged: 05/29/03 |
| Posts: 2586 |
| Loc: Deep beneath Vvardenfell
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Girai,
Thank you for your recent communication
which has placed me in unusally jovial spirits.
Quote:
How you have come to this conclusion is beyond me. I agree
that the Empire perhaps would add Talos to the divines out of
sheer desire for greater power, but where are you getting these
theories? Is it so difficult to accept that Talos simply returned
in mortal form? How do you interpret "Luck of the Emperor". If it
is Lorkaan, then why did he help the Nerevarine throw out of his
reach what he could have simply took? There is no logic or basis
stated to back the theory of it being Lorkaan, but there is plenty
for it being Tiber Septim.
May I refer to you to the recently published researches of my learned
colleague, Karnath, since I regret that my present duties leave me
with little time to devote to the fundamentals of your
re-education.
Respectfully,
Nigedo,
Student of Vehk the
Master
--------------------
Dean of
The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ
Post Extras: |
| Nigedo |
| Diviner |
|
|
| Reged: 05/29/03 |
| Posts: 2586 |
| Loc: Deep beneath Vvardenfell
| |
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Sera Louis
Dones,
I am delighted that you may have found my words
useful. I wish you all wisdom and discernment in your search for
knowledge.
Respectfully,
Nigedo,
Student of Vehk the
Master
--------------------
Dean of
The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ
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Nigedo,
I have read Karnath's paper, and gained a
much better understanding of the beliefs of the Whirling School of
Vivec, and Vivec himself's motives. He is carrying where Lorkhan
left off. For Lorkhan to do what he did, he had to be mostly of
Padomay so that he could disrupt the natural being of things to
attempt to ascend. The Hortator is just the next step of this. Now
everything is falling into place.
I've also never been so
sure of my beliefs. You are saying we put together (1) Is, the
Satisfied state, and (1) Is Not, the Void state, to ascend above
them both. I'm sorry, but this is the most rediculous thing I've
ever heard in my life.
Let's put aside the scholarly ramble.
We've seen what happens when this Endeavor is failed, it's all
around us. But there is a reason it's never worked. It can't! You
can't put together the lust of Padomay and the contented nature of
Anu and get anything but a confused mess (which is eventually going
to fall apart, nice situation for Padomay). The very basis of this
entire thing to try to combine the two to make a perfect enviroment
is flawed just because while Padomay is around it will always lust
for more. You seek something that is outside Anu and Padomay. It is
these two from which the universe is made. Wouldn't you think the
only options available would be what these two offer? There is
nothing in the universe that is not consisting of these two parts.
We have nothing else, there is nothing else, and why would you want
anything else? All mortals desire a fulfillment, they desire what
"Is" (and when they do things that support what "Is Not" it is hated
and eventually leads to the one who did it hating himself). Why do
you seek something that doesn't exist? That ironically "Is Not". You
can search and search and search until you fall apart, but 1 and 1
still make 2 or 11, neither of which can be made back into 1. It's
simply the way things are. Why would you want things different?
--------------------
Just a Cyrodiil citizen who believes
Anu is the answer.
The second to see the Brass God was
the Enantiomorph. You may know them individually as Zurin Arctus and
Talos. - Xal, a Human Maruhkati
Post
Extras: |
| Nigedo |
| Diviner |
|
|
| Reged: 05/29/03 |
| Posts: 2586 |
| Loc: Deep beneath Vvardenfell
| |
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Girai,
If I may, I will pose a question truly
simpler to comprehend than those matters of import which you cast
about, demanding slanted answers to your repetitive
rhetoric.
Quote:
Why do you seek something that doesn't exist? That ironically
"Is Not". You can search and search and search until you fall
apart, but 1 and 1 still make 2 or 11, neither of which can be
made back into 1. It's simply the way things are.
If you are so utterly convinced of
the immutability of the two divine poles, why then do you so
fervently seek to persuade others to the possibility of an existence
without Change?
(I would also add that, in your signature,
you have incorrectly cited Skeleton Man as the source of certain,
famous [and no doubt entirely misunderstood] comments spoken
actually by Xal, the
Maruhkati.)
Respectfully,
Nigedo,
Student of Vehk the
Master
--------------------
Dean of
The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ
Post Extras: |
| Yeah |
| Curate |
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| Reged: 10/17/02 |
| Posts: 601 |
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"You can't put
together the lust of Padomay and the contented nature of Anu and get
anything but a confused mess."
The Aedra (if you believe
certain creation myths) are indeed the mixed blood of Anu and
Padomay. One could argue that the children were just a confused
mess, or "everlasting imperfections" as a very wise man once said.
But none of it would change the fact that beings were created from
both Anu and Padomay, and that the beings created were extremely
powerful.
There is another instance, perhaps. If Lorkhan is
of Padomay then the two would share the same blood, right? And all
mortals are created of Anu, or at least because of him, correct?
Then when a mortal (of Anu) comes into contact with Lorkhan's heart
(of Padomay) wouldn't that also create the desired effect of the
11?
One of the walking ways was achieved thusly by four
Dunmer, and are they not worshipped as gods?
--------------------
Professor: The only thing I don't
like about those governments is that they want to give all of our
taxes away to the less-fortunate.
Fry: Yeah! The
less-fortunate get all the breaks!
Post
Extras: |
| Striker |
| Disciple |
|
|
| Reged: 09/28/00 |
| Posts: 1501 |
| Loc: South Australia, Australia
| |
|
Just a quick
question... where does the "Is"(1) and "Is Not"(1) come
from?
I would have thought that "Is Not" would be the
opposite of "Is", and therefore "Is"(1) and "Is Not"(-1). Although
if "Is Not" is the void, wouldn't that make it 0? In that case, 1 +
- 0 becomes 1, although 1 * 0 is 0. 0 / 1 is 0 and 1 / 0 is
infinity. This makes Anu and Padomay are both all and nothing,
depending on how you look at it.
Indeed, if Lorkhan tricked
Padomay into becoming "Is", that would stop the combination being
all and nothing - reducing it to a static number, unless you take
them away... in which case everything becomes the void
(0)!
Well, that's enough of my rambling. It probably doesn't
have anything to do with creation, but you get that.
-Striker
--------------------
Destination Morrowind
Don't
click here!
The views expressed in this post are not
necessarily mine.
Post Extras: |
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Actually the
Endeavor works pretty well... whether the results are all they're
cracked up to be is open to question, but it's by no means
impossible to gain great power that way. It's not so much hard as
tricky.
Quote:
You are saying we put together (1) Is, the Satisfied state,
and (1) Is Not, the Void state, to ascend above them both.
Nope, nope, nope. That would
indeed be ridiculous. It would be more accurate to say you divide
one by the other.
Even more accurate to say you ignore them both. Neither, not both.
Transcending them, not incorporating them. To be slaves to both
stasis and change is... well, pretty much the state mortals are born
into.
Edited by Allerleirauh
(02/13/04 06:37 AM)
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Nigedo,
Quote:
If I may, I will pose a question truly simpler to comprehend
than those matters of import which you cast about, demanding
slanted answers to your repetitive rhetoric.
You have been citing Vivec
over and over continually for who knows how long. Is it so hard to
understand he is a lying politician, just like Lorkhan? That he just
wants what's best for #1 (how ironic)? Upto date you haven't given a
single good reason why my answers to the many questions scholars
face are so rediculous. All you've done is throw around scholarly
ramble, insult me, and not even deal with the actual topic. The fact
is, Vivec was wrong. All he wanted to do is benefit himself.
Quote:
If you are so utterly convinced of the immutability of the two
divine poles, why then do you so fervently seek to persuade others
to the possibility of an existence without Change?
Because we came from an
existence without Change. We never came from outside the two poles
because it doesn't itself exist. Anu still is on it's own, it
brushed, not dissolved. If it were such we would not exist now. Anu
still lasts somewhere unmingled, and I believe that it is reachable.
How to reach it? Well, Auri-El "ascended to heaven in full
observance of his followers so that they might learn the steps
needed to escape the mortal plane." He couldn't have accomplished
the Endeavor, for then he would not exist as he is now.
Quote:
(I would also add that, in your signature, you have
incorrectly cited Skeleton Man as the source of certain, famous
[and no doubt entirely misunderstood] comments spoken actually by
Xal, the Maruhkati.)
Thank you for pointing this
out, though if perhaps you were putting together a logical argument
instead of picking apart my signature, we could have an actual
discussion.
Girai Harkaanius
--------------------
Just a Cyrodiil citizen who believes
Anu is the answer.
The second to see the Brass God was
the Enantiomorph. You may know them individually as Zurin Arctus and
Talos. - Xal, a Human Maruhkati
Post
Extras: |
|
|
|
Allerleirauh,
Quote:
Actually the Endeavor works pretty well... whether the results
are all they're cracked up to be is open to question, but it's by
no means impossible to gain great power that way.
Even if it did work, then it
would be only a cause for more destruction. Look at yourself. Think
you'd make a very good god? I give the universe a week... maybe.
Quote:
Nope, nope, nope. That would indeed be ridiculous. It would be
more accurate to say you divide one by the other.
Even more accurate to say you ignore them both. Neither, not both.
Transcending them, not incorporating them. To be slaves to both
stasis and change is... well, pretty much the state mortals are
born into.
Well, at least you're stating
your beliefs logically. As far as the beliefs of the Whirling School
go, it would seem "1" and "1" indeed do form to make "11", their
attempt at not falling into either be wielding the two to make
"possibility". As I said, I give the universe a week if it actually
did work. Yep, possibility alright.
The fact is the lust of
Padomay corrupts, even in the smallest amount. I've heard a lot
about people saying the Aedra are no better than the things I argue
against. I'd agree with those people. They are at least on the right
track, but cannot succeed as we can at the moment at least. They do
not make worthy "gods", that is why the Imperial Cult is corrupt.
I know I'm saying the same things over and over again, but
frankly you are too. Even the "Number of the Master" paper only
showed just how well Lorkhan set it up, and just how Vivec continues
it. We all can agree that Vivec is a liar in practically any other
topic, why when the Endeavor is refered to is he suddenly a Saint?
--------------------
Just a Cyrodiil citizen who believes
Anu is the answer.
The second to see the Brass God was
the Enantiomorph. You may know them individually as Zurin Arctus and
Talos. - Xal, a Human Maruhkati
Post
Extras: |
| Nigedo |
| Diviner |
|
|
| Reged: 05/29/03 |
| Posts: 2586 |
| Loc: Deep beneath Vvardenfell
| |
|
Girai,
It occurs to me that our recent exchanges have outgrown
their usefulness and so this will be my last letter to you at this
time.
I have pledged myself to encouraging the better
understanding of Vehk's teachings against the evidence and within
the context of wider lore, which necessitates my fundamental
disregard for the mundane details of his political career.
I
do not, however, feel that I have a duty to persuade those who will
not be persuaded of the efficacy of those teachings, having learned
from previous experiences that it is futile to provide extensive
arguments to one who claims to have "heard it all before". I am, in
the final analysis, a scholar not a priest.
I have already
attempted, elsewhere, to provide insights into the flaws in your
reasoning and many have also attempted to do so here. The fact is
that you have conjured an illusion of the natures of Stasis and
Change, and of the reality of the universe, whereby you imagine that
an existence derived solely from and within the sphere of Anu is not
only possible but the aim and reward of all enlightened mortals. I
find that this position is unsupported by scholarly study and
untenable.
But I wish you all you seek in your endeavor.
Respectfully,
Nigedo,
Student of Vehk the Master
--------------------
Dean of The
Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ
Post Extras: |
|
|
|
Nigedo,
There are just some questions your
theories can't answer. Just because you have been in the scholarly
realm longer doesn't mean your theory is any more legitimate than
mine. Just because my ideas are unorthodox doesn't mean they are
wrong.
Nonetheless, I understand your actions. You may
consider me a fanatic, but you are no less set in your beliefs or
desperate to keep them. We both have well thought systems of thought
(even though you may argue) and we both will keep them.
Girai
Harkaanius
Student of the Imperial Arts and citizen of the
Empire
The Imperial City, Cyrodiil
--------------------
Just a Cyrodiil citizen who believes
Anu is the answer.
The second to see the Brass God was
the Enantiomorph. You may know them individually as Zurin Arctus and
Talos. - Xal, a Human Maruhkati
Post
Extras: |
| TSBasilisk |
| Diviner |
|
|
| Reged: 06/09/03 |
| Posts: 2858 |
| Loc: Durango, CO | |
|
Girai
Just as being a junior scholar does not make you wrong, so
does our being senior scholars not necessarily mean we are wrong.
More questions are raised, you say? That indicates a good question.
You want to answer every fact, and pull together a buffer against
answers. But, in the real world, every answer raises at least three
new questions. You will never have a satisfactory answer, because
truth is not comprehended by us. We can't understand the universe or
why it came into existence because we are imperfect. No mortal has
the ability to know all there is, and few can even grasp the full
truth of even the simplest concepts. Reality is much larger than we
think, and no matter what we do to trty and grasp it, it will always
elude us.
You claim that Anu remains. How can it? By
changing even in the smallest bit, Anu is no longer perfect. To make
a single imperfection in Anu is to obliterate it. Perfection is a
tenuous thing. When Padomay and Anu collided, Anu ceased to exist as
it had. And can you even define what Anu is a perfection of? Is Anu
a perfection of form, of stasis, of anything?
The Psijic
Endeavor does not make mortals into gods. Every mortal is part of a
network of essence, grounded to Mundus by the Heart. When a mortal
dies, the better part of them, which defines their essence the most,
ascends and becomes a part of a new Anu. Anu is a perfection of
essence, I believe, a mixture of everything that exists into one
purity. Silver is "perfect" to some, but tarnish is perfect in and
of itself. The worst and best are all a part of Perfection. Padomay
disrupted the balance, and thus forced Anu to rebalance itself. The
Psijic Endeavor is the struggle to perfect one's self, not to become
a god. To ascend above Mundus into a new plane of existence where
the mortals are no longer remember, not to gain power over mortals.
You claim the Aedra corrupt the Cult, but that is a
falsehood. It is mortals who corrupt the cult.
There is a
difference between you and I, Girai. True, I am something of a
fanatic, and so are you. But you refuse to change. You cling so
tightly to the idea of Anu that you cannot see anything else. You
won't allow anything in to challenge your faith for fear it will
destroy you. In a fashion, you ARE Anu. When Padomay finally touches
your cornerstone of faith, and you are forced to reconsider, will
you too shatter yourself into many pieces and try to rebuild? I have
changed many times since I came to these forums, and continue to. My
principles may seem set in stone, but 1000 posts ago I had only just
heard of Anu and Padomay. In the future, you will likely see
different opinions from me. But I doubt I shall ever believe that to
hide behind a shield of rhetoric is the best course of action.
Harold Trontskii
Dwemer Archaeologist
Nchuleft
excavation site, Vvardenfell
--------------------
Member
of the Forum Scholars Guild
Member of Greater Dwemer Ruins,
Modder in charge of Nchuleft
Edited by
TSBasilisk (02/13/04 09:03 PM)
Post Extras: |
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Well, Girai,
you neatly ducked my question about the Arena and its
purpose...
I can't allow you to dismiss little Vehk quite so
lightly. That "lying politician" was a more humane and benevolent
god to his people, while he lasted, than any other deity ever seen
in the Mundus. If a netchiman's son can do that good a job, the
Aedra and Daedra don't have much to brag about. Even now, stripped
of the power of the Heart, with no possible benefit to himself, he
returns to encourage and challenge the peoples of this
forum.
I happen to disagree, not only with his methods, but
also with his goals... you are, I believe, correct that the Endeavor
does not improve those who use it, any more than a sword in the
hands of a coward makes a hero. Salvation, if it exists, lies
elsewhere. But, just as a coward with a sword is better able to deal
with his fear than a coward without a sword, I believe all sentient
creatures are better when not cringing beneath a whip. Or two whips,
as the case may be.
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